In response to Re: Opinions of Will-Excel Global? (tzenkethi)

The following is an approved message by the Will-Excel TESOL Institute based out of Harbin, China.

In short, the majority of the claims made by tzenkethi above on July 4, 2009 at 3:36 am are completely false. It is impossible to give a full and accurate account of what transpired between the dates of June 4 and July 2 in brief. As such, we have included the entire account below.

Though quite lengthy, interested parties will find viewing this material useful in deciphering the inaccuracies stated above with the actual truth of the matter.

To be as brief as possible, we will only quote the major errors in the OPs original post.

a fairly fruitless search for detailed feedback in the forums (a few first-hand positive experiences thin on detail, and a lot of baseless negative opinions),

Among many others results, a standard Google search for Will-Excel TESOL will yield the following:

http://willexceltesol.blogspot.com/
http://picasaweb.google.com/WillExcelTESOL
http://www.youtube.com/user/WillExcelTESOL
http://www.teflcoursereview.com/will-excel-tesol/#comments

The links above contain a wealth of information and first-hand experience that teachers have with the course, provided accommodation, their sponsor schools, etc.

The original post continues:

The reply came back quickly (the next day) as did most replies, however there was no attempt to answer my questions

OP to Will-Excel TESOL on June 4
------------------------------

Dear Sir/Madam

Having visited your web site, I'm interested in learning more about your TESOL Course.

I'm a native English speaker from the UK, currently living in China - Shenyang, Liaoning Province. I don't have a university degree, but I do have over 14 years work experience in IT, including some internal and customer training experience. I'm looking to change careers, and wanted something that involved working with people, therefore English Teaching seems to be a logical choice. I've looked into many different courses in China, including the CELTA, but was especially interested in your company having read so many good reviews from previous attendees.

Note here that the OP mentions he is writing to us based on

so many good reviews from previous attendees

Why, then did he write the following:

fairly fruitless search for detailed feedback in the forums (a few first-hand positive experiences thin on detail, and a lot of baseless negative opinions),

The OPs email continues:

Any information about the assessment criteria would be especially useful. As would more information about the location of your sponsor schools.

I was also wondering if it would be possible to visit your site, and have a chat in person about the course and see the facilities?

I look forward to receiving your reply.

We responded on June 4. In response, the OP received our standard reply, which includes our brochure (a summary of the program, course content, etc.), links to further information, and the following:

Will-Excel TESOL to OP on June 4
------------------------------

Thank you for expressing interest in our program. We are now selecting applicants for our June 22nd, August 3rd and November 2nd programs.

I've attached a copy of our brochure, which includes an FAQ, to answer any questions you may have. If you have any questions that are not answered in the attached document, or if you have trouble opening it, please let me know.

You can view more information about our program and day-to-day events by viewing the following:

TESOL Blog: http://willexceltesol.blogspot.com/
TESOL Photo Album: http://picasaweb.google.com/WillExcelTESOL
TESOL Video Testimonials: http://www.youtube.com/user/WillExcelTESOL

A trip to visit us in person would be possible, granted advanced notice was given. We're currently between programs, so our schedule is open on weekdays up until the 19th of June.

In order to apply to our program, please send us a copy of your resume, a scanned copy of your passport along with biodata page, scans of your highest degree received (e.g. Bachelors of Arts degree, high school diploma, etc.), a recent photo, and a completed application form from our website www.WillExcelTESOL.com. Once we have these documents we can begin processing your application.

The original post above continues:

I was a little disappointed with this evasion, and therefore pushed for a face-to-face meeting and asked again about the location of their schools. He agreed to a meeting, but wanted me to apply for the programme first which was fair enough, but he again evaded answering my question and simply tried to push me towards the self-funded option.

The word evasion here is quite peculiar, seeing how all of his questions were answered either in the brochure, on the website, or in the comment quoted above. At this stage, there was also no mention of the self-funded option, as can be seen from our initial email above.

The OP then responded with the following:

OP to Will-Excel TESOL on June 5
------------------------------

Many thanks for your quick reply, and the information which I've read with interest.

In theory I would be interested in the November 2nd programme.

I would be interested in viewing the video testimonials, however YouTube appears to be blocked at the moment in China. Is there another way to view these?

As discussed I would like to visit your site in Harbin, and this would probably therefore be during the week ending 19th June. I will be in contact again soon with the exact date when I've arranged train tickets and a hotel.

The only question I have at this time is whether you have any partner schools in the Shenyang area for the teaching term, as I'd ideally like to remain near home (north-east) if possible?

With regards to application, I'd like to bring the requested items with me in person and submit them to you directly after the visit if that's acceptable with you? My resume is currently entirely focused on the IT industry, as that's been my area of work in the past - would you prefer a shortened version, with more background information with regard to ESL, or just as-is?

Will-Excel TESOL to OP on June 6
------------------------------

You'll need to use a proxy to get around the "Great Firewall" here in China. You can use a free proxy site found online just by Googling "free proxy server", or, if you use Firefox/Mozilla, by downloading and installing the "Gladder" add on. Both of these methods will allow you to access YouTube.

Before meeting in person, it would be ideal if we could view your application materials first. This way, we'll both go into the meeting knowing that you're a suitable candidate for the course. We'll also need electronic copies of these materials to forward to potential sponsor schools.

If you're only interested in teaching in one specific city, you may be interested in looking at our self-funded option, which allows you to choose your own employer, and also offers the freedom to pay your tuition fees over an extended period of time, therefore minimizing up front costs.

As for your resume, you can leave it as is, though you will need to tailor the objective to English teaching.

Again, referring to the use of the OPs use of the word evasion, it is quite clear that all of his original questions up to this time have been answered. We also state quite clearly why we are recommending the self-funded option granted the OPs preference to

to remain near home (north-east)

Its also quite confusing why the OP mentions later in the original post that

The replies all seemed to be copy and paste jobs (like the majority of the previous emails)

At this stage in our dialogue, the OP had received only 2 emails from us, both of which addressed his questions specifically. It should also be quite clear from the emails quoted below that all correspondence was done so in responding to specific questions and inquiries.

The original post above continues:

I really wanted to get some answers from them, so before sending in the application, I tried asking questions again, but this time numbering them to as to make each question accountable. This seemed to work better, in that he answered each question, but still in a very evasive way that after reading the answers I was none-the-wiser.

For brevity, Ive combined the OPs reply along with our response. Again, the use of evasive here is still very troubling as it is crystal clear that we have provided specific details to each of his questions.

OP to Will-Excel TESOL on June 6
Will-Excel TESOL to OP on June 7
------------------------------

Thanks again for another quick reply.

Before sending my application, I would greatly appreciate it if you could answer a couple of questions:

1) How is the TESOL certificate assessed? What are the assessment criteria?

1. Course grades are marked 40% based on academic performance on various tasks, or quizzes, and 60% on student evaluations collected throughout the teaching term. Marks are based using the American Grade Point Average (GPA) scale of 4.0.

2) What happens if a student fails a sponsored course? Or does every participant pass simply by attending?

2. Our current pass rate is 91%. Teachers who fail the course do not receive their Diploma.

3) What processes are in place to deal with any disputes with sponsor schools during the teaching term, such as non-payment of salary? If the relationship with the sponsor school were to completely collapse, is it still possible to get the TESOL certificate?

3. Sponsor schools enter into a three-party contract, whereby Will-Excel TESOL oversees that all aspects of the contract between the sponsor school and the teacher are followed. We do not sign on sponsor schools until they have passed a thorough screening process. In the case that the relationship between the sponsor school and the teacher breaks down by fault of the sponsor school, Will-Excel TESOL assists the teacher in finding a new, suitable sponsor school. Under these circumstances, the teacher is still eligible for their Diploma.

4) How does the teaching term feedback determine if the diploma should or should not be awarded?

4. See question #1.

5) If sponsored, is it at all possible to limit the sponsor schools by location, such as the north-eastern provinces (including Harbin)? Although my home city would obviously be the most convenient, I'm open to other locations but would just prefer to have the option to take a train journey home if necessary.

5. We try our best to accommodate to all applicants needs. In the case that the applicant's preferences cannot be met, the applicant is not required to accept the sponsored position, and may look into enrolling in the program under other options.

Our answers seem quite clear here, which begs the question why the OP writes (quoted above):

still in a very evasive way that after reading the answers I was none-the-wiser.

The OP submitted his application materials on June 9 and was promptly asked to create an interview recording. The interview recording was submitted on June 13. The OP was offered a position in our November 2 program on June 16.

Along with the standard offer, we included in the email:

Will-Excel TESOL to OP on June 16
------------------------------

We can only guarantee a position for you for the next 48 hours as space in this program is very limited. As you have mentioned visiting our site, we should be able to hold this offer until after your visit, granted that visit is this week. However, I am only available to meet up until Friday afternoon, June 19. After that, I'll be busy with the June 22 intake. If you'd like to visit after that date, you'd need to wait until after July 20.

I had hoped to get at least a week's notice from you regarding your visit. As it stands now, my schedule is quite inflexible. If you plan on visiting this week, I'm free during the following times:

June 17 Wednesday 1 - 2 pm
June 18 Thursday 9 am - 12 pm
June 19 Friday 9 am - 12 pm

A brief tour of our training center and a sit down to discuss any questions you have shouldn't take any longer than an hour.

I'll need at least 24 hours notice on any visit this week. Notice less than 24 hours may result in me being unavailable.

Will-Excel TESOL to OP on June 16 at 11:52 pm
------------------------------

I've now arranged transport and accommodation to Harbin this week, and I'd like to meet with you on Thursday morning, say around 10am if that's still convenient?

With regards to visa requirements, I'm currently living in China on a special type of tourist visa which is renewed annually, but doesn't allow me to work. I assume I can attend the course on this visa, but when the teaching term begins I will need a conversion to a work permit?

If the course fees are paid online, how do I get a paper receipt as proof of payment?

And in a second email sent immediately after the above:

I'm leaving early this morning for Harbin, and probably won't have access to email so I'm going to assume the meeting is on for Thursday at 10am, and also that I should come to your training center address.

If there is a problem, please contact me on (mobile number provided here)

The original post continues:

I got an offer to join the November programme under the self-funded option, because apparently ALL the sponsored positions had already been filled. A little hard to believe at this early stage?

At the time that the OP wrote, on June 16, all available sponsored positions had been filled. It just so happened, however, that between the sending of this email and our meeting on June 18 that a position opened.

The offer was pushing me to pay $500 within the next 48 hours, however they said I could defer the payment until after my visit, as long as I visited this week. Then complaining that they had wanted 1 week notice of my visit, (which had already been given!), and they were the ones saying I needed to visit at that time?

There were never any complaints about the visit. As is clearly evident in all of the above posts and emails, the OP was told that he was welcome to meet us in Harbin for a tour of our facilities.

Despite the delay in receiving his application materials (the application was first requested on June 4 and completed on June 13), we accommodated to his request for a meeting on a short notice. His above email sent June 16 at 11:52 pm was received the morning of June 17, giving only 24 hours notice.

As they had given me no time to confirm arrangements of the meeting

It would be more appropriate to say that we were given no notice of the OPs arrival. We frequently receive emails from prospective teachers requesting a meeting. It was not until we received his email (quoted above) that we had any definitive indication that the OP would be arriving for the requested meeting.

It turns out that Will-Excel use Sunshines office space at two of their locations, and have no premises of their own.

This is incorrect. Though our training center is based out of one of Sunshines four branches throughout Harbin, we also have our own office location in Harbin.

In reality, the Will-Excel partnership consists of a recruiter/teacher employed by Sunshine, and the co-founder/director of foreign affairs at Sunshine.

Our relationship specifically with Sunshine is that of a teacher training partner. All of Sunshines teachers are trained exclusively through Will-Excel TESOL. Sunshine is one of dozens of partners that we have located throughout China.

Each input session is followed by a written multi-choice or single-sentence answer quiz the following day.

Of the courses written assessment materials required, none of them are multi-choice. This was made clear during our meeting.

Homework consists almost exclusively of lesson plans and grammar exercises.

This is inaccurate. There are a number of follow-up activities required to be completed outside of class, as well as assigned readings pertaining to material covered in class.

Limited computer access is provided

The training center provides eight computers for teachers to work on. In addition, each TESOL apartment is equipped with a computer that teachers are welcome to use.

The accommodation is shared by up to 3 people (or couples) during the first month (training period)

The comment here about 3 couples is also inaccurate. Apartments exceed no more than four people (in the case of an attending couple). Everyone is given a private bedroom.

Any social events that you decided to attend will of course be at your own expense.

Will-Excel TESOL arranges several social events free of charge for participants, including a welcome dinner, farewell lunch and graduation dinner.

Future employers currently have to email Will-Excel to ask if a certificate/diploma is authentic, although there is a future plan to allow automated online checking.

Though employers within China may contact us directly to verify issued certificates and diplomas, no verification is necessary since each graduate receives a certificate/diploma accredited by the local bureau of education as is clearly evident from the bureaus stamp. This system is in place so that only graduates of our program can claim that they have participated in and completed the program.

In China, forging the use of official stamps is a severe crime and punishable by de-licensing, disbanding and jail time. More on this below.

The Heilongjiang Provincial Education Bureau do NOT authorise anyone to issue certificates to foreigners.

This is also inaccurate.

Our certificates and diplomas are indeed accredited by the Heilongjiang Provincial Education Bureau via our partnership with the哈尔滨市民办非学历协会 (Pinyin: Haerbin Shi Minban FeiXueli Xiehui). A literal word-for-word translation of this in English is Harbin City Resident Manage Non-University Degree Association.

This association, as is evident in the name, is responsible for overseeing all non-university programs, including, but not limited to, English and other language schools, Mandarin study programs designed specifically for foreigners, professional and vocational certifications, diplomas, etc. As such, all lawful and accredited certificates and diplomas issued in Harbin must have the approval of this association.

This was proven by first personally calling the bureau and asking several depts, none of which have heard of the company, and also with the kind help of high-ranking official in the Liaoning education bureau who confirmed that no company has this authorisation.

Im not familiar with the OPs sources. However, they are indeed mistaken.

Will-Excel do NOT have government accreditation for their certificates

Disproved above.

and when asked to produce evidence they eventually admitted to not having any written agreement or authorisation from anyone, but could fabricate one given a couple of weeks.

Again, more inaccuracies. The OP, during his visit, was told that the requested paperwork was not on hand. The OP visited our training headquarters, per his request seen in the email above. The OP did not visit our office, where said documentation is located.

As such, the term fabricate is wholly unwarranted, and a gross misinterpretation of what was actually said.

The current red Chinese stamp on the certificate is from a Harbin city-level association which authorises English training centres to give certificates to English students.

As mentioned above, this particular association actually oversees all non-university programs. Any professional course, extending far beyond English schools, must seek to be accredited by this particular association.

Given that Sunshine is an English training centre, the origin of this stamp doesnt seem too difficult to guess.

Its quite clear that, yes, we are both accredited by the same government association that accredits non-university schools and programs. Such a stamp can be found at any institution, private, public, vocational, etc, that has been approved by this association.

The typical training schedule consists of: input sessions from Tuesday to Friday, including 1 hour of Chinese lessons each day

Its actually 70 minutes of Mandarin training per class, with a total of 20 hours throughout the term of the course.

an optional workshop each week for assisting with lesson plans.

This workshop is actually a mandatory input session for new teachers to attend. The objective is to assist trainees with preparing for their teaching practice.

Also a sponsored position suddenly became available at Sunshine, so I decided to see if they would give a formal offer. A positive reply came back to me that evening, and I arranged to return to their training centre the next day to review the contracts.

The OP clearly demonstrated himself to be a very capable person throughout the first meeting, which lasted over two hours. It is very rare to find someone who takes as much care in researching as him. We believed at that time that if he put half as much effort into developing as a teacher as he had through this application process, he would certainly prove himself to be a major asset to the sponsor school. Upon our recommendation, the sponsor school felt confident in offering him a position.

We only wish now that he would have put as much effort into checking his facts and sources than is presented in this post.

Upon reviewing the contracts I became immediately concerned at the 60-day notice period, number of teaching hours per week (22) compared with the very low salary (4000RMB per month=45/RMB per hour!)

It should be noted here that this offer from the sponsor school included the following:

4000 RMB/month and in additional 1000 RMB/month in bonuses
Free accommodation throughout the term of the teaching term
All visas fees paid for by the employer
Free meals each day
Free transportation to and from class
TESOL Diploma sponsorship (the sponsor school would pay the remaining US$1300 for the teacher)

The TESOL contractdidnt even state that you would be awarded a certificate!

Direct from our TESOL contract:

Party-A will issue a final transcript to Party-B outlining all courses completed and the scores received on each course. Providing Party-B receives a cumulative GPA of 2.0 or higher Party-A will issue him/her with a graduation TESOL certificate.

The original post continues:

Having asked for this to be included, and attempting for a second time to start negotiations regarding salary, they took over a week to reply, finally just stating that they would not negotiate at all,

Even baring all this mind, and against my better judgment, I agreed to proceed on the logic that Im only risking $200 (compared to $1250 for most TESOL courses), provided that I had a copy of these policy manuals in my possession. They then replied saying that theyd decided to give the position to another applicant

The OP was told very clearly, both in our first and second meeting, which took place on June 18 and June 19, that the sponsor school would not negotiate salary. Regardless, the OP continued to draw the process out. Between the time that the position was offered on June 19 and June 30, when the OP finally decided to register for the course, the sponsor school had found another applicant they found ideal for the position.

To be specific, the OP received the following email:

Will-Excel TESOL to OP on July 1
------------------------------

Sunshine has just informed me that they've chosen another applicant for their final November vacancy. As such, they will not be able to honor the original offer.

However, our offer for you to join the TESOL program under self-funded option #2 still stands.

Please let us know if you'd like to register under this option, and we'll forward you the appropiate details.

The OP responded with the following, quite insulting, email:

OP to Will-Excel TESOL on July 2
------------------------------

Considering Sunshine (you) are the one who delayed so long, this confirms my suspicions about the quality and integrity of your company.

Given that your TESOL certificate is basically worthless, lacking the government certification that you claimed on your website, the self-funded option is only suitable for idiots, as you're basically the same price range as genuinely recognised certificates.

I've also read enough things about your business partner Dan to know the kind of person he is and the connections Sunshine has to realise that accepting a position at your school is equivalent to a voluntary prison sentence!

I'm now more than tired with your pathetic double-act with Dan, and your continual lies and evasions, so you can rest assured that I'm no longer interested in participating in your programme in any way, and will try my best to inform others of what I have learnt during this period.

Despite the negativity, we responded with the following, which ended our attempt to communicate with the OP:

Will-Excel TESOL to OP on July 2
------------------------------

I'm sorry you feel that way about the course, particularly seeing how the claims you have made in your last response are untrue.

Regardless, you're certainly a very capable person, as has been made clearly evident over the last few weeks. You take great care in what you do in life and will certainly make good choices in the future.

I'm sorry things could not have worked out better, but I'm sure that you'll do well here in China, as well as wherever you end up in the future.

My best to you and (your wife (who accompanied the OP)) in your future endeavors.

The original post continues:

In summary, Im not trying to bad-mouth Will-Excel or Sunshine

We are not quite sure how else you would term disseminating such a plethora of fallacies.

as I havent actually attended the course or worked at Sunshine

Which is quite unfortunate, as we were quite certain that he would have benefited greatly from our training. Hopefully his future endeavors will incorporate more positives than expressed above.