Veritas
- 2015-05-17
Thanks for being courteous and I believe you . Sorry for any hurt feelings.
San Migs
- 2015-05-17
Agreed. Even a BA in anything does not really cut it anymore. For the better paying ESL jobs in Taiwan and elsewhere an MA is a must, and/or preferably being qualified to teach in your home country.
A friend I knew went back home and got a MA in Creative Writing, now said friend does not have to depend upon ESL in China, and can travel to Southeast asia as fits and suits without worrying about money, as a lecturer and published author back in said home country.
Veritas
- 2015-05-16
Curtis you need to work in a better way for yourself. Get a grad degree in journalism or anything. ESL is for lazy guys, if on is still doing that, as they approach age 30....You need to teach a real subject in your own country. Otherwise you will be middle aged and still be doing ESL. I myself never taught ESL but am glad some people do. I do not see how your ESL training can help you in your own country.
David Dilley (was yu2fa3)
- 2015-04-17
Alexander, this ex-employee of yours writes well:http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/review/index.pl?noframes;read=58057
Less than a year after that post you've put your company up for sale.
http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/start-your-own-school/index.pl?read=14578
I trust that prospective buyers will judge your communication skills and motivation against that of a "clearly biased ex-employee" who has no financial interest in the sale of your "organization".
Forum readers can judge themselves whether FT reviews of schools have any impact.
Somewhat of a flimsy exaggerated claim, that the reviews had that effect, Martin; nonetheless, a superbly well written post. Well done.
martin hainan
- 2015-04-17
Alexander, this ex-employee of yours writes well:
http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/review/index.pl?noframes;read=58057
Less than a year after that post you've put your company up for sale.
http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/start-your-own-school/index.pl?read=14578
I trust that prospective buyers will judge your communication skills and motivation against that of a "clearly biased ex-employee" who has no financial interest in the sale of your "organization".
Forum readers can judge themselves whether FT reviews of schools have any impact.
notquite
- 2015-04-17
a very interesting discussion topic, a shame most comments on here are not really relevant.
i represent a school that was unfortunate enough to hire two young-ish teachers who were both let go and decided to take revenge on this site and a few others.
the talk at the time might have affected the response rate to our recruiting but i would argue that on the whole, it only put off those we would probably not have been keen on to start with.
if anyone is daft enough to be influenced by clearly biased comments from unhappy ex-employees, then i should think they are not suitable for work in the organisation concerned.
we haven't had to up our offer, actually, we have even found that offering slightly less (we used to offer CNY12000+, but now offer 10-15, and we don't pay for visa anymore, nor do we give an end of year bonus anymore) worked better.
we have managed to attract older, more stable and concerned teachers who actually care about what they do more than they care about money.
obviously, the trend on this website is a bit ridiculous but this is symptomatic of the modern faceless internet social environment as a whole and it has its benefits; those who spend more time online hiding behind their keyboards (although they do manage to hurt some people; internet bullying is unfortunately a grave matter) are less likely to interfere in the real world and have much impact on the business landscape. i am not entirely discarding the impact they may have, i am merely saying it is very limited.
still, a bit more objectivity would be welcome!
David Dilley (was yu2fa3)
- 2015-04-07
Same boring pattern from you. You are just trying to push buttons. You do this because you can only see me as less than human. You hope to push the right one so I will “follow” what you say. I will politely remind you that you are in the land of the living. Habits of what you are accustomed to from your land of origination (eating brains? speaking mumbo jumbo?) need not be carried out here.
I wish I could press a button and I would hear no more about this wretched soup kitchen.....and what was the other one-'sleeping in an elderly relatives cellar in New York!?' What nonsense I agree!
The best thing you can do is to avoid speaking to other posters on the phone and on skype- something that you said has been exaggerated that's for sure.
As have said it strikes me that Turnoi has been a bit foolish, but he did go to extraordinary lengths to protect you..and he succeeded at the time!! However a subsequent minor argument erupted(that had sod all to do with soup kitchens) between the two of you and all the mud started to be thrown. Best you two make up.
Dragonized
- 2015-04-06
Same boring pattern from you. You are just trying to push buttons. You do this because you can only see me as less than human. You hope to push the right one so I will “follow” what you say. I will politely remind you that you are in the land of the living. Habits of what you are accustomed to from your land of origination (eating brains? speaking mumbo jumbo?) need not be carried out here.
David Dilley (was yu2fa3)
- 2015-04-06
There is no "gang" on here. If there was any it was you, Spector/Foxy, and soup kitchen [edited](the Turnoi poster) who likes to dominate and slander anyone who dares disagree with any of your opinions. You are not capable of fair conversation, and you never have been. Not being able to respond with evidence and logic and instead needing to tar someone who disagrees with you with lies is what you have been consistently doing. This forum is all the poorer because of it. Of course, you call it "joking" in the emails you sent to me with a fake name you made up.
Well I know who Spector is and it is certainly not foxy as you /. Who is Spector? (you know foxy, he lives in hothot) I can't tell you because I am not in the pathetic business of revealing people I was on trust not to. You know spector can't be me because I would spell it 'spectre' No foxy is far too sensible to be spector.
Let's be clear about who e-mailed who concerning turnoi- it was you and I still have the e-mail (which I have never shown to turnoi or anybody.) Don't you remember, you lavished thanks on me at the time?
Having said that, how are you dear boy? Good to see you back.
Dragonized
- 2015-04-06
Hi Curtis thank you for the post. I do believe that ESL teachers as a group have little leverage in these societies where they are traveling to. Often, the internet is the only place where they can get a more even playing field. In real life, their former employers have the connections, money, and admiration of society for being successful business owners on the surface. The number of disgruntled teachers though I believe cannot be few in number. After all, tens of thousands of new ESL teachers join the foray every year.
Your training center's success at hiring new teachers who don't give a sh*t about what others in the past went through is hardly news. There are many people out there who believe that real experience is what counts. A better way to affect business would be to persuade people to not become ESL teachers. For example, when I hear someone talking about teaching in China or another country I have worked in I will share with them my honest views on what they may encounter both positive and negative. I am confident that folks who are raised in countries with better standards on the treatment of others can weigh the options for themselves. That is the best way to affect the ESL field.
I think if most ESL teachers took Silverboy's views, the industry would certainly be affected. The problem is, many do not. He has also claimed to have made some training centers lose business, which I believe him for. I think if you are looking for a better way, then I certainly can say I cannot think of any. Training Center Bosses do not play Fair. Neither should ESL teachers. If that means tolerating and having someone with Silverboy's personality around, then that is something I can accept based on my own experiences working at these places.
Dragonized
- 2015-04-05
There is no "gang" on here. If there was any it was you, Spector/Foxy, and soup kitchen [edited](the Turnoi poster) who likes to dominate and slander anyone who dares disagree with any of your opinions. You are not capable of fair conversation, and you never have been. Not being able to respond with evidence and logic and instead needing to tar someone who disagrees with you with lies is what you have been consistently doing. This forum is all the poorer because of it. Of course, you call it "joking" in the emails you sent to me with a fake name you made up.
Dragonized
- 2015-04-06
No, "hatred" in my definition would be not caring about others enough to absolve them of all moral responsibility. This is what you have done in regards for Chinese people in general on this forum.
I am hardly a "proper" teacher by western standards. But I am certainly a better teacher than some people, like you for example. I think the only person who posts regularly on this forum who is a proper teacher by worldly standards is Cunning Linguist. This is hardly a compliment, just an observation.
I find it amusing the tall tales thrown about me on this forum. You and S[edited] talk about me being in my 60s and eating out of soup kitchens. Foxy/Spector talks about me being poorer because I am a single man in my 30s. You three folks seem to be like the Alzheimer's version of the 3 stooges trying to conjure up a competent joke in your diminishing wits, without much success
Curtis
- 2015-04-05
Yea I totally noticed Turnoi was the far more sensible of the group. He has actually posted some meaningful responses to people who post genuine questions about certain schools. That's funny about silverboy though. He is the definition of a vacation teacher for sure. Yet he will accuse everyone else of that. Hahaha What a joke.
David Dilley (was yu2fa3)
- 2015-04-05
The people who hog the responses on this board would disagree with you. Only they deserve to work in China or Asia for that matter. I am referring to SB and his gang. However they are the real pretend teachers. They act act like teaching at Universities is the only thing worth while, as if children don't need good teachers too.
Hahaha! SB was a fashion model. He put on some tyres and became a labourer on building sites. He thought he's try his hand at teaching because he was told that Chinese studentesses are eager to get their knickers off for ageing westerners. Hahaha only joking lol.
Second language Turnoi( a German) is a great bloke actually- he was the leader of the gang until brutally turned upon by SB and an American called Dragonized. What I'm saying is you are totally correct they are pretend teachers who like to call proper teachers pretend. I should amend that and say that I believe Dragon is a proper teache4r with a manic hatred for the Chinese.
Curtis
- 2015-04-05
The burden of proof is on you. You assume you are all high and mighty on this website, prove to me that you are a real educator or forever have your opinion dismissed for the trash that it is.
Curtis
- 2015-04-05
I want to deter people from posting uninformed posts on this site. When someone comes on has a one page rant about their school and it is usually the first time we have heard from this person I believe them. They are probably responding to some BS at their school. Then you all who don't work there or know anything take over the forum and sound so ridiculous that the original complaint against the school loses all credibility. I have seen first hand teachers show up at a crap school and say, the internet posts about the school just sounded like they were written by a bunch of idiots. Let the people making the complaints complain and let's support them. You all are another extreme. Who are you anyway? Pretend teacher perhaps? Hahaha
San Migs
- 2015-04-05
However they are the real pretend teachers. They act act like teaching at Universities is the only thing worth while, as if children don't need good teachers too.
Prove that...you cannot!!
Curtis
- 2015-04-04
The people who hog the responses on this board would disagree with you. Only they deserve to work in China or Asia for that matter. I am referring to SB and his gang. However they are the real pretend teachers. They act act like teaching at Universities is the only thing worth while, as if children don't need good teachers too.
martin hainan
- 2015-04-05
I just want to here other success stories of using this site to affect a bad school
My fear is when we post negatively about a bad school on here we deter far too few people and
these schools can continue to operate as though business was usual.
My conclusion is that you want to deter people on this site from posting negative information about schools.
Negative posts are not designed to put schools out of business; they are an attempt to provide information for individuals considering working at that school.
Your continued focus on this site's impact on the operation of private schools suggests that school management is your true concern.
yu2fa3
- 2015-04-04
Training Centres, Universities in the main are good places to work in China. The degreeless teacher and the degree-holding ones can obtain happy jobs and have a gay stay in China. A lot depends on your people skills.
Curtis
- 2015-04-04
No matter what is put on this website is criticized by you guys. What do you guys actually want? Sometimes it seems the message is for all foreigners to get out of China because all aspects of it are garbage. Whether we are talking about a certain school or a city in general.
If I had posted asking about such and such a school you'd say it was crap go work for a public university. If I said how about such and such university you'd say that one is garbage all universities in China are garbage stay away. If I had posted saying such and such an employer is trying to get someone to work on a tourist visa you would say that's rubbish get a working visa. Now I talk about actually getting working visas and you say why get a working visa?
I ask you San Migs, what do you think people should do. Whether they are Joe Schmo with no degree or in his 20s or some professional educator with degrees out his a** saying he wants to live in China. What is your advice. All you children on here can do is criticize.
San Migs
- 2015-04-04
I am seeing tighter restrictions on who can qualify for working visas now too, as specially in the more desirable destinations such as Shanghai.
Desirable? I had a lung infection after leaving Nanjing, and that is close enough to Shanghai. A working visa, and for what? Polluted skies and undrinkable water?
Curtis
- 2015-04-03
Well said John. I am seeing tighter restrictions on who can qualify for working visas now too, as specially in the more desirable destinations such as Shanghai. Places out in the middle of nowhere seem to still be able to get visas for 20 year old kids with no degree. However, I feel if things keep tightening up then the supply of employable teachers will be a lot less. Those of us with degrees and teaching credentials will start seeing a rise in salaries.
I think we have been seeing that to some degree, but it can be a lot more. I no longer teach English, so I am out of date when it comes to what teachers should be making. Assuming its a licensed school, and an average work load, and a non sucker for a teacher, what is the average salary now a days?
We really need to get that out there so new teachers coming to China know not to be suckered into low paying jobs. I've talked to people in 2nd tier cities that say they are making 7 or 8 thousand and I think how on earth did they sucker you into taking that. I figure 12,00 a month is a fair bare minimum?
John O'Shei
- 2015-04-03
Even if the Western economies are weak, China's GDP per capita will never match that of most Western countries. So they can dream on...
Curtis
- 2015-04-03
I don't want to reveal the school because I have already said negative things about it. If I reveal the school it would be pretty obvious to the people working there who I am. I'd rather not go through that drama.
I just want to here other success stories of using this site to affect a bad school. Don't try and Hi-Jack the topic for your own agenda. Trust me the school I worked at has been s*** all over. Anyone else have experience seeing a school forced to change, or fail to recruit and thus go out of business due to this site or have we all been wasting our time?
My fear is when we post negatively about a bad school on here we deter far too few people and these schools can continue to operate as though business was usual. It just seems there is an endless flow of 20 some year olds that these schools can continue to take advantage of these people year after year. In one case I even knew of a boss getting cockey and thinking, China's economy is strong now and the west is weak. Soon I will be able to pay foreign teachers less than their Chinese counter parts. What a laugh as it will never come to that, but as that was his thinking it just makes me sick.
martin hainan
- 2015-03-31
My school was definately NOT somewhere people should be going to work at, and I left.
As this is a school review thread and you are allegedly interested in assisting other prospective teachers, this joker would like to know the name and location of the "school" where you worked. If you choose not to provide it, you are apparently being disingenuous.
we are pretty good at differentiating
REMINDER DO NOT POST ON HERE TO COMMENT ON YOUR OPINION OF TRAINING CENTERS.
Are "we" identifying ourselves as a site monitor?
Curtis
- 2015-03-31
I feel we are pretty good at differentiating between an employee of the school providing their general view of the school (justifiably negative) and a person invested in the school who is going to try and deflect negative reviews. Every now and then someone comes on here talking about a highly criticized training center in a strangely positive light. By then we know its the DOS or a Chinese employee told by the boss to do so.
I don't feel there is a danger in fake posts giving fake schools a good name and thus tricking teachers to go there. The BS is far too easy to smell out. I feel there is more of a danger of the conversations on this website getting too carried away and potential teachers not taking these warnings seriously.
I worked at a school as I said before that was highly criticized on here. When new teachers would arrive I would ask them, did you read about this school online? They said yea. I said so why did you even come here then. They said all the people online sounded pretty crazy and we couldn't take their reviews seriously.
My issue is there are truly awful schools out there and the warnings should be taken seriously. However there is far too much emotion, hatred, and bias by the people who use this site regularly to allow those warnings to be taken seriously. I feel bad for the guy asking general questions on a school he might find 2 or 3 legitimate opinions, but he has to dig through 40 posts of old fogies on here ranting about their own opinions.
My school was definately NOT somewhere people should be going to work at, and I left. However, I feel people don't pay attention to the warning signs since certain individuals put up so much smoke and garbage on this website that it is hard for potential teachers to see through the smoke.
When it gets to the point where every school a person is researching comes up with horrible reviews they start thinking, oh I guess this is just normal. Unfortunately they take a chance and end up at schools that should have been avoided.
REMINDER DO NOT POST ON HERE TO COMMENT ON YOUR OPINION OF TRAINING CENTERS. I WANT TO DISCUSS HOW WE CAN HELP TEACHERS AND HOW WE CAN AFFECT BAD SCHOOLS. THE OTHER TWO JOKERS ONE HERE CLEARLY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT.
Curtis
- 2015-03-31
I said I didn't want to debate training centers with this. This is all you guys on here know how to talk about. YES I AGREE WITH YOU. What I wanted to talk about in this forum is how successful school bashing has actually been on training centers. I shared one experience at my schoolw here we all experienced increased quality of our job through better treatment and higher salaries. I am curious what other stories are out there in regards to how this forum has affected schools.
Don't post your opinion on training centers. We all kind of have the same opinion other than the odd Chinese TA that comes on these forums pretending to be an FT. Other than that we all agree. Let's share some insight into what's actually being done. Are the countless hours on here making a difference in Education in China. I am sure some teachers turn down jobs and end up at some other evil simply because they found some place that hadn't been exposed yet. Meanwhile the school being bashed either can't recruit, imrpoves working conditions, or finds some poor sap to take their shitty job.
Thats what I want to discuss. Not everyones universal opinion on crappy Chinese bosses. We agree so save your breath.
martin hainan
- 2015-03-31
A thread will get started in one of two ways.
An additional way is when industry owners and managers attempt to support their investment by discrediting their critics and "disgruntled employees".
The ubiquitous incessant multimedia employee recruitment advertising of these for-profit English language chains speaks eloquently to their employee retention and treatment.
asd
- 2015-03-31
Curtis, Training Centres only exist to make money and that always compromises the quality of education delivered to students in a variety of ways. Cost minimization is the goal of TC owners (and their managers) and that is usually accomplished by buying cheap textbooks, making teachers teach more classes, lowering salaries, making classes bigger etc etc.
Now i guess you know as well as me that the greediness of the owners of TC's can't be denied, but there is a point at which the business reaches optimum profit making capacity and the need for cost maximisation reduces or stops altogether, but the chinese are notorious for always wanting more so the pressure and drive to make more profit and the dysfunctional measures used to achieve this never really stop. Hence the differences between the working conditions of one TC and another.
Some TC's are therefore good to work for and others truly are pure hell and the attitude toward profit maximisation by the owners and managers being the defining difference.
I'm sure you know this and whether or not you actually care about the welfare of the teachers who work around you, I hope they do post of their experiences here or elsewhere if their contracts terms and conditions were infringed upon at all as for most of us life is not about corporate profit but instead the welfare and enjoyment of life.
So there is a very obvious trend on this website. A thread will get started in one of two ways. The first one is a person interviewing at a potential school will ask for some general advice on the school. Within hours the regulars will come down hard on that school for its existence or if they are lucky someone who worked there will reply. Whatever happens, the main posters will hi-jack the forum and the person who posted the original message does not know what to make of "Happy Go Lucky English Training Center" or recruiter "da sha bi". The other way these threads get started is a disgruntled employee justified in their grievances or just a 22 year old idiot pissed off because he had to actually work at his job, will take revenge on the school posting about its many wrongful practices. Some of which are true, some are exaggerated, and some are just huge lies. However, the thinking of the disgruntled teacher at the time is "a ha， I have won, once the internet finds out all the horrible things my boss did they will never recruit another teacher again".
This seems to be a goal. Let's destroy these businesses. I want to discuss the results of shaming a school online and how it affected that school. Clearly EF is still growing and so are many of the other favourite schools we crap all over on this website. Perhaps new schools that are struggling to get off the ground get a devastating blow when we warn the unsuspecting 21 year old not to go there.
I worked at a school which has been mentioned on this website quite a bit. It is still thriving today and has no trouble recruiting teachers. I will so the post negatively affected the profits of the boss and positively affected anyone willing to look passed the negative posts online and try the job out for themselves. The monthly salary went up by 3,000 RMB a month because it was hard to recruit people at the original salary. However, pay them enough and no amount of eslteachersboard garbage will scare them off. Also the apartments which were not that bad to begin with were completely refurnished. It was a nice slap in the face to the boss of that school to remind him to appreciate his teachers. Those of us at the school at the time were very thankful of the guy who slammed our school which prevented them from hiring teachers for about 6 weeks. Once they made the offer more sweet people couldn't give two s**** a piss about what past teachers thought. Anyways long email I don't feel like editing lets discuss this. SB is welcome to join this forum, just no grumbling. I want to hear peoples thoughts on affecting schools not whether education should be a business or not. We all know your views. Keep it tame or take it elsewhere.