Chrissy
- 2011-01-10
@ Wendy
1. The degree is accredited by the Chinese government. You get a diploma upon graduation with the government stamp. A few teachers in my course moved on to other countries after graduation. One worked for an international school in China. So, I know it's accepted in other countries for TESOL. I'm not sure about the US, though I heard you can apply to get credit at universities through this course. You'd have to speak with the DOS for more details.
2. The apartments were great. Very clean. We had a cleaner come by once a week to straighten up. There's also a 24/7 hour staff member on hand to handle any issues that arise. The surrounding area isn't super clean, but it's China. Where I stayed was much better than other areas I've seen, and from what I understand finding super clean places anywhere in this country is impossible.
3. We didn't pay for utilities. That's part of the course.
4. I had complete control of the placement for my teaching term. I was very happy with the school and received support throughout the term. I did receive accommodation, but no insurance. I had to go for a medical for my visa, and that was paid. Luckily, I didn't have to see a doctor for the rest of the time I was with them.
The Will-Excel TESOL course is great. Very professional. But you need to be prepared for China, which is a very different place and culture. The Chinese themselves have a very different atittude toward life, and dealing with Chinese management can be a challenge. Not everyone's English is very good. Will-Excel will help you learn how to deal with this, but you need to actually pay attention in class.
Gwen
- 2011-01-09
Hi Chrissy,
I am thinking about going to Will-Excel, and am trying to get a little more information. I appreciate all the help you can give me.
Is this TESOL degree accredited for use in other countries as well as the U.S.?
How were the accommodations? Did you have to pay for the utilities?
How were the classes and instructors.
Did they set you up with a job after the class and if so, where was it, did you have a choice and how was the pay? Did they also give you free accommodations? Insurance?
Thanks for your help!!!
Wendy
Gem
- 2010-11-21
Hi
Hope you dont mind me sending you a message, i was just reading through people's post's and was wondering if you ever moved out to Harbin to teach, the reason I ask is because I am part way through an application and want to get peoples feedback from it. I would really appretiate any help you could give me, thank-you.
Best Regards
Gem
Lia
- 2009-10-20
I havent been to this thread in a while but a friend of mine who is considering this school had something happen to him that was fairly similar to the second post. No open spot, then an open spot, he replies to take it, they say its already been filled, on and on. So I wanted to give him this link to show him the thread. Then I saw this post and I had to laugh a little. No chrissy and I are not the same person, we have never met, and i wouldnt know her on the street. She sent me an email answering a few questions about the school but thats about it. I also recieved a couple from Drew. I have since decided that not going might be a wise choice. After reading this post and hearing from my friend it seems that this is standard procedure from them...tell you there is nothing to get you to pay...realize you arent going to pay...offer sponsorship...you get excited about going...they yank sponsorship in hopes that you will pay anyway...you tell them to forget it...they offer sponsored spot again...and the saga continues. I would advise anyone who wants to be a legitimate teacher in a foreign country to avoid this school and any other that seems shady. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, its probably a duck. Thank you to the people that answered my questions and put up with my lack of knowledge. ~Lia
Kimiya
- 2009-08-24
I have watched the video testimonials, and have much difficulty believing that everyone who goes through there is so satisfied that they volunteer to laud praise on video. What I have an easy time believing is that people go there, and naturally feel a bit vulnerable being at the mercy of the business that has all of the power in renewing their visas and the like.
I'm willing to bet that these testimonials are mandatory, and that those who refuse to say something kind probably do not receive their certification...and may well find themselves in a bad position in a foreign country. That is called Duress. For god's sake.. a lot of them look like teenagers. Teenagers don't volunteer for anything, and that's as close to a fact as you can come without it actually being fact. The average person (especially teenage person) doesn't go around espousing particular opinions to the benefit of their employer. In fact, this is so true, that many militaries (A large employer of people aged 17-26) feel it necessary to make their personnel sign a contract saying that they will.
Many people are willing to do a lot of things they otherwise wouldn't when they're made to feel their livelihoods depend upon it, so I don't see how these video testimonials mean anything at all. I don't doubt that the words they're speaking in these videos are their own. I don't have some paranoid belief that they're scripted. I am, however, about 100% certain that they were required by all people who took the course, and that these people might suffer some undesirable consequences for refusing to partake.
I realize that in many cases this is how business is done in China. I'm sure that turning a blind eye and going with the flow imposed upon you is key to the type of harmonious existence desired in their culture. However, I'm not Chinese, and most of the people this business are likely to be hiring are from countries that are democracies. Coercion of this sort does not settle well with me.
I'm not even suggesting that the managers there are bad people, or that they actively make threats against their employees. They're probably polite people. But I am sure that everyone who works under them is keenly aware of how vulnerable they are to their whims. With this in consideration, I can't see these video testimonials as being evidence of anything other than that these people were asked (and felt obligated) to say a few kind words on film (whether they meant them or not)
This doesn't even mean that they didn't mean the words. They might genuinely like everything about working there. But because of the manner in which they're brought to being in these videos, I don't know who (if anyone) is being genuine, and who is just making the rounds.
Chrissy
- 2009-08-19
It seems a bit odd how one can correlate making a (reasonably) timely response with being affiliated with said organization. However, I know the internet well enough to know that nothing I can say here will tame the true skeptic's fervor to flame others.
Regardless, I stand behind this institute not because I'm an undercover agent for them, but because they treated me fairly, provided a very high-quality course and training, and set me up with a job I love.
Not here, nor elsewhere (and I know because I spent hours researching), will you find anyone with first-hand negative experience with this group. You will, unfortunately, find a lot of baseless claims made by skeptics.
In short, do your research, visit their site, video testimonials, photo album, ask for references, etc., and you'll see that this course is one well worth taking.
Interested parties are more than welcome to contact me by email and ask questions!
Kimiya
- 2009-08-12
Wow. That wasn't suspicious at all. (Sarcasm) I read a number of things here that are positively scathing, most of which being months apart....AND THEN an almost immediate reply to a post from an "interested party" that gives a glowing recommendation. Am I honestly to believe that when there are 19 posts about this school in the last four years, that someone received a reply to their inquiry within a day? Why do I get the feeling that Lia and Chrissy are in cahoots or quite possibly the same person?
This Dan character seems to grossly underestimate the intelligence of the average teacher. I, for one, do not appreciate the ruse. Nice try, though. I realize that scam artists typically target people with sub-par critical thinking ability, but come on. The only way you could have made that any more obvious was by, I don't know, accidentally attaching the signature of the school's owner out of habit.
Chrissy
- 2009-07-22
Hi there! Yes, I've taken the Will-Excel TESOL course and I think they're great. I really enjoyed the training and teaching practice. They took excellent care of me in Harbin, and found me a sponsor school in southern China, which is where I wanted to go. Though I haven't taught outside of China (yet), I did apply to several positions in Korea and Japan with their diploma and was accepted.
You're welcome to contact me via email for questions and a chat!
Chrissy, chrissyblack76@hotmail.com
Lia
- 2009-07-21
Has anyone gone to this school with the sponsored option? Is this certification good outside of Harbin? Is there someone that I can speak to (in real time) that has actually attended this school, finished the certification, and gone on to be a productive individual? I, like the original poster, cannot find much on this school besides a lot of skepticism and company sponsored websites. If someone, anyone, can give a positive recommendation for this school (someone that I can have a talk with) then please contact me. My msn is Mishafan03. I want to teach in China but I also want to make sure i'm not making a major mistake.
WillExcelTESOL
- 2009-07-05
The following is an approved message by the Will-Excel TESOL Institute based out of Harbin, China.
In short, the majority of the claims made by tzenkethi above on July 4, 2009 at 3:36 am are completely false. It is impossible to give a full and accurate account of what transpired between the dates of June 4 and July 2 in brief. As such, we have included the entire account below.
Though quite lengthy, interested parties will find viewing this material useful in deciphering the inaccuracies stated above with the actual truth of the matter.
To be as brief as possible, we will only quote the major errors in the OPs original post.
a fairly fruitless search for detailed feedback in the forums (a few first-hand positive experiences thin on detail, and a lot of baseless negative opinions),
Among many others results, a standard Google search for Will-Excel TESOL will yield the following:
http://willexceltesol.blogspot.com/
http://picasaweb.google.com/WillExcelTESOL
http://www.youtube.com/user/WillExcelTESOL
http://www.teflcoursereview.com/will-excel-tesol/#comments
The links above contain a wealth of information and first-hand experience that teachers have with the course, provided accommodation, their sponsor schools, etc.
The original post continues:
The reply came back quickly (the next day) as did most replies, however there was no attempt to answer my questions
OP to Will-Excel TESOL on June 4
------------------------------
Dear Sir/MadamHaving visited your web site, I'm interested in learning more about your TESOL Course.
I'm a native English speaker from the UK, currently living in China - Shenyang, Liaoning Province. I don't have a university degree, but I do have over 14 years work experience in IT, including some internal and customer training experience. I'm looking to change careers, and wanted something that involved working with people, therefore English Teaching seems to be a logical choice. I've looked into many different courses in China, including the CELTA, but was especially interested in your company having read so many good reviews from previous attendees.
Note here that the OP mentions he is writing to us based on
so many good reviews from previous attendees
Why, then did he write the following:
fairly fruitless search for detailed feedback in the forums (a few first-hand positive experiences thin on detail, and a lot of baseless negative opinions),
The OPs email continues:
Any information about the assessment criteria would be especially useful. As would more information about the location of your sponsor schools.I was also wondering if it would be possible to visit your site, and have a chat in person about the course and see the facilities?
I look forward to receiving your reply.
We responded on June 4. In response, the OP received our standard reply, which includes our brochure (a summary of the program, course content, etc.), links to further information, and the following:
Will-Excel TESOL to OP on June 4
------------------------------
Thank you for expressing interest in our program. We are now selecting applicants for our June 22nd, August 3rd and November 2nd programs.I've attached a copy of our brochure, which includes an FAQ, to answer any questions you may have. If you have any questions that are not answered in the attached document, or if you have trouble opening it, please let me know.
You can view more information about our program and day-to-day events by viewing the following:
TESOL Blog: http://willexceltesol.blogspot.com/
TESOL Photo Album: http://picasaweb.google.com/WillExcelTESOL
TESOL Video Testimonials: http://www.youtube.com/user/WillExcelTESOLA trip to visit us in person would be possible, granted advanced notice was given. We're currently between programs, so our schedule is open on weekdays up until the 19th of June.
In order to apply to our program, please send us a copy of your resume, a scanned copy of your passport along with biodata page, scans of your highest degree received (e.g. Bachelors of Arts degree, high school diploma, etc.), a recent photo, and a completed application form from our website www.WillExcelTESOL.com. Once we have these documents we can begin processing your application.
The original post above continues:
I was a little disappointed with this evasion, and therefore pushed for a face-to-face meeting and asked again about the location of their schools. He agreed to a meeting, but wanted me to apply for the programme first which was fair enough, but he again evaded answering my question and simply tried to push me towards the self-funded option.
The word evasion here is quite peculiar, seeing how all of his questions were answered either in the brochure, on the website, or in the comment quoted above. At this stage, there was also no mention of the self-funded option, as can be seen from our initial email above.
The OP then responded with the following:
OP to Will-Excel TESOL on June 5
------------------------------
Many thanks for your quick reply, and the information which I've read with interest.In theory I would be interested in the November 2nd programme.
I would be interested in viewing the video testimonials, however YouTube appears to be blocked at the moment in China. Is there another way to view these?
As discussed I would like to visit your site in Harbin, and this would probably therefore be during the week ending 19th June. I will be in contact again soon with the exact date when I've arranged train tickets and a hotel.
The only question I have at this time is whether you have any partner schools in the Shenyang area for the teaching term, as I'd ideally like to remain near home (north-east) if possible?
With regards to application, I'd like to bring the requested items with me in person and submit them to you directly after the visit if that's acceptable with you? My resume is currently entirely focused on the IT industry, as that's been my area of work in the past - would you prefer a shortened version, with more background information with regard to ESL, or just as-is?
Will-Excel TESOL to OP on June 6
------------------------------
You'll need to use a proxy to get around the "Great Firewall" here in China. You can use a free proxy site found online just by Googling "free proxy server", or, if you use Firefox/Mozilla, by downloading and installing the "Gladder" add on. Both of these methods will allow you to access YouTube.Before meeting in person, it would be ideal if we could view your application materials first. This way, we'll both go into the meeting knowing that you're a suitable candidate for the course. We'll also need electronic copies of these materials to forward to potential sponsor schools.
If you're only interested in teaching in one specific city, you may be interested in looking at our self-funded option, which allows you to choose your own employer, and also offers the freedom to pay your tuition fees over an extended period of time, therefore minimizing up front costs.
As for your resume, you can leave it as is, though you will need to tailor the objective to English teaching.
Again, referring to the use of the OPs use of the word evasion, it is quite clear that all of his original questions up to this time have been answered. We also state quite clearly why we are recommending the self-funded option granted the OPs preference to
to remain near home (north-east)
Its also quite confusing why the OP mentions later in the original post that
The replies all seemed to be copy and paste jobs (like the majority of the previous emails)
At this stage in our dialogue, the OP had received only 2 emails from us, both of which addressed his questions specifically. It should also be quite clear from the emails quoted below that all correspondence was done so in responding to specific questions and inquiries.
The original post above continues:
I really wanted to get some answers from them, so before sending in the application, I tried asking questions again, but this time numbering them to as to make each question accountable. This seemed to work better, in that he answered each question, but still in a very evasive way that after reading the answers I was none-the-wiser.
For brevity, Ive combined the OPs reply along with our response. Again, the use of evasive here is still very troubling as it is crystal clear that we have provided specific details to each of his questions.
OP to Will-Excel TESOL on June 6
Will-Excel TESOL to OP on June 7
------------------------------
Thanks again for another quick reply.Before sending my application, I would greatly appreciate it if you could answer a couple of questions:
1) How is the TESOL certificate assessed? What are the assessment criteria?
1. Course grades are marked 40% based on academic performance on various tasks, or quizzes, and 60% on student evaluations collected throughout the teaching term. Marks are based using the American Grade Point Average (GPA) scale of 4.0.
2) What happens if a student fails a sponsored course? Or does every participant pass simply by attending?
2. Our current pass rate is 91%. Teachers who fail the course do not receive their Diploma.
3) What processes are in place to deal with any disputes with sponsor schools during the teaching term, such as non-payment of salary? If the relationship with the sponsor school were to completely collapse, is it still possible to get the TESOL certificate?
3. Sponsor schools enter into a three-party contract, whereby Will-Excel TESOL oversees that all aspects of the contract between the sponsor school and the teacher are followed. We do not sign on sponsor schools until they have passed a thorough screening process. In the case that the relationship between the sponsor school and the teacher breaks down by fault of the sponsor school, Will-Excel TESOL assists the teacher in finding a new, suitable sponsor school. Under these circumstances, the teacher is still eligible for their Diploma.
4) How does the teaching term feedback determine if the diploma should or should not be awarded?
4. See question #1.
5) If sponsored, is it at all possible to limit the sponsor schools by location, such as the north-eastern provinces (including Harbin)? Although my home city would obviously be the most convenient, I'm open to other locations but would just prefer to have the option to take a train journey home if necessary.
5. We try our best to accommodate to all applicants needs. In the case that the applicant's preferences cannot be met, the applicant is not required to accept the sponsored position, and may look into enrolling in the program under other options.
Our answers seem quite clear here, which begs the question why the OP writes (quoted above):
still in a very evasive way that after reading the answers I was none-the-wiser.
The OP submitted his application materials on June 9 and was promptly asked to create an interview recording. The interview recording was submitted on June 13. The OP was offered a position in our November 2 program on June 16.
Along with the standard offer, we included in the email:
Will-Excel TESOL to OP on June 16
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We can only guarantee a position for you for the next 48 hours as space in this program is very limited. As you have mentioned visiting our site, we should be able to hold this offer until after your visit, granted that visit is this week. However, I am only available to meet up until Friday afternoon, June 19. After that, I'll be busy with the June 22 intake. If you'd like to visit after that date, you'd need to wait until after July 20.I had hoped to get at least a week's notice from you regarding your visit. As it stands now, my schedule is quite inflexible. If you plan on visiting this week, I'm free during the following times:
June 17 Wednesday 1 - 2 pm
June 18 Thursday 9 am - 12 pm
June 19 Friday 9 am - 12 pmA brief tour of our training center and a sit down to discuss any questions you have shouldn't take any longer than an hour.
I'll need at least 24 hours notice on any visit this week. Notice less than 24 hours may result in me being unavailable.
Will-Excel TESOL to OP on June 16 at 11:52 pm
------------------------------
I've now arranged transport and accommodation to Harbin this week, and I'd like to meet with you on Thursday morning, say around 10am if that's still convenient?With regards to visa requirements, I'm currently living in China on a special type of tourist visa which is renewed annually, but doesn't allow me to work. I assume I can attend the course on this visa, but when the teaching term begins I will need a conversion to a work permit?
If the course fees are paid online, how do I get a paper receipt as proof of payment?
And in a second email sent immediately after the above:
I'm leaving early this morning for Harbin, and probably won't have access to email so I'm going to assume the meeting is on for Thursday at 10am, and also that I should come to your training center address.If there is a problem, please contact me on (mobile number provided here)
The original post continues:
I got an offer to join the November programme under the self-funded option, because apparently ALL the sponsored positions had already been filled. A little hard to believe at this early stage?
At the time that the OP wrote, on June 16, all available sponsored positions had been filled. It just so happened, however, that between the sending of this email and our meeting on June 18 that a position opened.
The offer was pushing me to pay $500 within the next 48 hours, however they said I could defer the payment until after my visit, as long as I visited this week. Then complaining that they had wanted 1 week notice of my visit, (which had already been given!), and they were the ones saying I needed to visit at that time?
There were never any complaints about the visit. As is clearly evident in all of the above posts and emails, the OP was told that he was welcome to meet us in Harbin for a tour of our facilities.
Despite the delay in receiving his application materials (the application was first requested on June 4 and completed on June 13), we accommodated to his request for a meeting on a short notice. His above email sent June 16 at 11:52 pm was received the morning of June 17, giving only 24 hours notice.
As they had given me no time to confirm arrangements of the meeting
It would be more appropriate to say that we were given no notice of the OPs arrival. We frequently receive emails from prospective teachers requesting a meeting. It was not until we received his email (quoted above) that we had any definitive indication that the OP would be arriving for the requested meeting.
It turns out that Will-Excel use Sunshines office space at two of their locations, and have no premises of their own.
This is incorrect. Though our training center is based out of one of Sunshines four branches throughout Harbin, we also have our own office location in Harbin.
In reality, the Will-Excel partnership consists of a recruiter/teacher employed by Sunshine, and the co-founder/director of foreign affairs at Sunshine.
Our relationship specifically with Sunshine is that of a teacher training partner. All of Sunshines teachers are trained exclusively through Will-Excel TESOL. Sunshine is one of dozens of partners that we have located throughout China.
Each input session is followed by a written multi-choice or single-sentence answer quiz the following day.
Of the courses written assessment materials required, none of them are multi-choice. This was made clear during our meeting.
Homework consists almost exclusively of lesson plans and grammar exercises.
This is inaccurate. There are a number of follow-up activities required to be completed outside of class, as well as assigned readings pertaining to material covered in class.
Limited computer access is provided
The training center provides eight computers for teachers to work on. In addition, each TESOL apartment is equipped with a computer that teachers are welcome to use.
The accommodation is shared by up to 3 people (or couples) during the first month (training period)
The comment here about 3 couples is also inaccurate. Apartments exceed no more than four people (in the case of an attending couple). Everyone is given a private bedroom.
Any social events that you decided to attend will of course be at your own expense.
Will-Excel TESOL arranges several social events free of charge for participants, including a welcome dinner, farewell lunch and graduation dinner.
Future employers currently have to email Will-Excel to ask if a certificate/diploma is authentic, although there is a future plan to allow automated online checking.
Though employers within China may contact us directly to verify issued certificates and diplomas, no verification is necessary since each graduate receives a certificate/diploma accredited by the local bureau of education as is clearly evident from the bureaus stamp. This system is in place so that only graduates of our program can claim that they have participated in and completed the program.
In China, forging the use of official stamps is a severe crime and punishable by de-licensing, disbanding and jail time. More on this below.
The Heilongjiang Provincial Education Bureau do NOT authorise anyone to issue certificates to foreigners.
This is also inaccurate.
Our certificates and diplomas are indeed accredited by the Heilongjiang Provincial Education Bureau via our partnership with the哈尔滨市民办非学历协会 (Pinyin: Haerbin Shi Minban FeiXueli Xiehui). A literal word-for-word translation of this in English is Harbin City Resident Manage Non-University Degree Association.
This association, as is evident in the name, is responsible for overseeing all non-university programs, including, but not limited to, English and other language schools, Mandarin study programs designed specifically for foreigners, professional and vocational certifications, diplomas, etc. As such, all lawful and accredited certificates and diplomas issued in Harbin must have the approval of this association.
This was proven by first personally calling the bureau and asking several depts, none of which have heard of the company, and also with the kind help of high-ranking official in the Liaoning education bureau who confirmed that no company has this authorisation.
Im not familiar with the OPs sources. However, they are indeed mistaken.
Will-Excel do NOT have government accreditation for their certificates
Disproved above.
and when asked to produce evidence they eventually admitted to not having any written agreement or authorisation from anyone, but could fabricate one given a couple of weeks.
Again, more inaccuracies. The OP, during his visit, was told that the requested paperwork was not on hand. The OP visited our training headquarters, per his request seen in the email above. The OP did not visit our office, where said documentation is located.
As such, the term fabricate is wholly unwarranted, and a gross misinterpretation of what was actually said.
The current red Chinese stamp on the certificate is from a Harbin city-level association which authorises English training centres to give certificates to English students.
As mentioned above, this particular association actually oversees all non-university programs. Any professional course, extending far beyond English schools, must seek to be accredited by this particular association.
Given that Sunshine is an English training centre, the origin of this stamp doesnt seem too difficult to guess.
Its quite clear that, yes, we are both accredited by the same government association that accredits non-university schools and programs. Such a stamp can be found at any institution, private, public, vocational, etc, that has been approved by this association.
The typical training schedule consists of: input sessions from Tuesday to Friday, including 1 hour of Chinese lessons each day
Its actually 70 minutes of Mandarin training per class, with a total of 20 hours throughout the term of the course.
an optional workshop each week for assisting with lesson plans.
This workshop is actually a mandatory input session for new teachers to attend. The objective is to assist trainees with preparing for their teaching practice.
Also a sponsored position suddenly became available at Sunshine, so I decided to see if they would give a formal offer. A positive reply came back to me that evening, and I arranged to return to their training centre the next day to review the contracts.
The OP clearly demonstrated himself to be a very capable person throughout the first meeting, which lasted over two hours. It is very rare to find someone who takes as much care in researching as him. We believed at that time that if he put half as much effort into developing as a teacher as he had through this application process, he would certainly prove himself to be a major asset to the sponsor school. Upon our recommendation, the sponsor school felt confident in offering him a position.
We only wish now that he would have put as much effort into checking his facts and sources than is presented in this post.
Upon reviewing the contracts I became immediately concerned at the 60-day notice period, number of teaching hours per week (22) compared with the very low salary (4000RMB per month=45/RMB per hour!)
It should be noted here that this offer from the sponsor school included the following:
4000 RMB/month and in additional 1000 RMB/month in bonuses
Free accommodation throughout the term of the teaching term
All visas fees paid for by the employer
Free meals each day
Free transportation to and from class
TESOL Diploma sponsorship (the sponsor school would pay the remaining US$1300 for the teacher)
The TESOL contractdidnt even state that you would be awarded a certificate!
Direct from our TESOL contract:
Party-A will issue a final transcript to Party-B outlining all courses completed and the scores received on each course. Providing Party-B receives a cumulative GPA of 2.0 or higher Party-A will issue him/her with a graduation TESOL certificate.
The original post continues:
Having asked for this to be included, and attempting for a second time to start negotiations regarding salary, they took over a week to reply, finally just stating that they would not negotiate at all,
Even baring all this mind, and against my better judgment, I agreed to proceed on the logic that Im only risking $200 (compared to $1250 for most TESOL courses), provided that I had a copy of these policy manuals in my possession. They then replied saying that theyd decided to give the position to another applicant
The OP was told very clearly, both in our first and second meeting, which took place on June 18 and June 19, that the sponsor school would not negotiate salary. Regardless, the OP continued to draw the process out. Between the time that the position was offered on June 19 and June 30, when the OP finally decided to register for the course, the sponsor school had found another applicant they found ideal for the position.
To be specific, the OP received the following email:
Will-Excel TESOL to OP on July 1
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Sunshine has just informed me that they've chosen another applicant for their final November vacancy. As such, they will not be able to honor the original offer.However, our offer for you to join the TESOL program under self-funded option #2 still stands.
Please let us know if you'd like to register under this option, and we'll forward you the appropiate details.
The OP responded with the following, quite insulting, email:
OP to Will-Excel TESOL on July 2
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Considering Sunshine (you) are the one who delayed so long, this confirms my suspicions about the quality and integrity of your company.Given that your TESOL certificate is basically worthless, lacking the government certification that you claimed on your website, the self-funded option is only suitable for idiots, as you're basically the same price range as genuinely recognised certificates.
I've also read enough things about your business partner Dan to know the kind of person he is and the connections Sunshine has to realise that accepting a position at your school is equivalent to a voluntary prison sentence!
I'm now more than tired with your pathetic double-act with Dan, and your continual lies and evasions, so you can rest assured that I'm no longer interested in participating in your programme in any way, and will try my best to inform others of what I have learnt during this period.
Despite the negativity, we responded with the following, which ended our attempt to communicate with the OP:
Will-Excel TESOL to OP on July 2
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I'm sorry you feel that way about the course, particularly seeing how the claims you have made in your last response are untrue.Regardless, you're certainly a very capable person, as has been made clearly evident over the last few weeks. You take great care in what you do in life and will certainly make good choices in the future.
I'm sorry things could not have worked out better, but I'm sure that you'll do well here in China, as well as wherever you end up in the future.
My best to you and (your wife (who accompanied the OP)) in your future endeavors.
The original post continues:
In summary, Im not trying to bad-mouth Will-Excel or Sunshine
We are not quite sure how else you would term disseminating such a plethora of fallacies.
as I havent actually attended the course or worked at Sunshine
Which is quite unfortunate, as we were quite certain that he would have benefited greatly from our training. Hopefully his future endeavors will incorporate more positives than expressed above.
tzenkethi
- 2009-07-04
I recently discovered the Will-Excel TESOL programme when searching the internet for possible courses to kick-start my ESL career in China. Having read a lot of horror stories I was understandably sceptical about a programme which sounded too good to be true, so after a fairly fruitless search for detailed feedback in the forums (a few first-hand positive experiences thin on detail, and a lot of baseless negative opinions), I emailed them to ask for more information. I was especially interested in the assessment criteria for the certificate, and the locations of their sponsor schools (only a provincial level, because I didnt want to move too far away from my current home in Liaoning province).
The reply came back quickly (the next day) as did most replies, however there was no attempt to answer my questions, just an attached PDF version of their entire website, and links to their blog, photo albums and video testimonials, and a push to begin the application process. I was a little disappointed with this evasion, and therefore pushed for a face-to-face meeting and asked again about the location of their schools. He agreed to a meeting, but wanted me to apply for the programme first which was fair enough, but he again evaded answering my question and simply tried to push me towards the self-funded option.
I really wanted to get some answers from them, so before sending in the application, I tried asking questions again, but this time numbering them to as to make each question accountable. This seemed to work better, in that he answered each question, but still in a very evasive way that after reading the answers I was none-the-wiser.
After pushing for more information again, I was sent an extract from their TESOL policy manual which provided a little more insight, but really only raised more questions. I decided to press on with the application so that I could meet them in person and finally get some answers to my questions.
The application process consists of filling out a very basic form, sending scans of your passport and qualifications, and then recording an MP3 of yourself answering some typical interview prompts (a great teacher is, Im good because, etc.). This is a little lazy way of doing things, but I guess fairly efficient in screening applicants.
After completing this process, and indicating both on the form and in previous conversations that I was applying for the November programme, the reply came back suggesting they were considering me for the August programme! The replies all seemed to be copy and paste jobs (like the majority of the previous emails), and also seemed to be ignoring the reason for the application, which was my visit.
After correcting them, I got an offer to join the November programme under the self-funded option, because apparently ALL the sponsored positions had already been filled. A little hard to believe at this early stage? The offer was pushing me to pay $500 within the next 48 hours, however they said I could defer the payment until after my visit, as long as I visited this week. Then complaining that they had wanted 1 week notice of my visit, (which had already been given!), and they were the ones saying I needed to visit at that time?
Ok, I thought, lets just go and find out what the real story is! As they had given me no time to confirm arrangements of the meeting, and as no telephone number is available for Will-Excel, I had to just send an email saying when I was coming and where I had assumed the meeting to take place, and gave my telephone number so that if there was a problem they could contact me!
Fortunately, all went as planned, and I met up with them at one of California Sunshine International Language Centres sites. It turns out that Will-Excel use Sunshines office space at two of their locations, and have no premises of their own hence no telephone number. In reality, the Will-Excel partnership consists of a recruiter/teacher employed by Sunshine, and the co-founder/director of foreign affairs at Sunshine.
The information I got during this meeting is as follows:
There are no essays to complete during the course. Each input session is followed by a written multi-choice or single-sentence answer quiz the following day. There are 5 professional development projects, which are each assessed differently. The foreign language journal, teaching observation forms are very subjective, and therefore carry less weight than the materials, curriculum writing, and one-to-one projects. The only other written materials produced by the student during the course are lessons plans. The above constitute 40% of your final diploma grade, or 100% if you decide to only do the certificate and not the 6-month diploma (teaching term). The remaining 60% of the diploma grade is based on regular student and colleague feedback using a rating system coded in excel spreadsheets, which interprets question responses into a percentage score which is averaged across each age group of students taught. All grades use the American GPA system, and you are required to score at least 2.0 to pass the course. The current quoted pass rate of the course is 91%.
The teaching practice is all done individually (not in groups), and consists of 4 60-minute one-to-one sessions with an adult learner, and at least 3 120-minute sessions with children (normally) at Sunshine, accompanied by a teaching assistant, and an evaluator for the first hour of each class. Additional classes may be offered at Sunshine at the rate of 45RMB/hour! Also some opportunities may exist to teach classes at a local university.
Homework consists almost exclusively of lesson plans and grammar exercises.
Pier observation is not a planned part of the course, but the opportunity exists should free time allow.
Limited computer access is provided, although no wireless access is available. You may plug in your own laptop in place of any existing unused computer, but splitting of the signal is not permitted, either at home or at the office.
The self-funded work placement works by Will-Excel sending your resume out to an undisclosed number of schools around China with the hope of at least one offering you a position. They also suggest you try to find a job yourself and will provided assistance in writing resumes and cover letters etc.
The number of participants in each programme varies from 7 to 15, and everyone works individually with a single group. The accommodation is shared by up to 3 people (or couples) during the first month (training period), and becomes private during the working term.
There are no additional fees to pay during the course that relate to course, i.e. course books, stationery, photocopying, internet access are all included, however any social events that you decided to attend will of course be at your own expense.
If you decide to go self-funded, your certificate will be provided as soon as you pay all course fees this is very flexible in payment terms. If you are sponsored, your diploma is given to you after you complete your 6-month teaching term.
Future employers currently have to email Will-Excel to ask if a certificate/diploma is authentic, although there is a future plan to allow automated online checking.
The Heilongjiang Provincial Education Bureau do NOT authorise anyone to issue certificates to foreigners. This was proven by first personally calling the bureau and asking several depts, none of which have heard of the company, and also with the kind help of high-ranking official in the Liaoning education bureau who confirmed that no company has this authorisation. Will-Excel do NOT have government accreditation for their certificates, and when asked to produce evidence they eventually admitted to not having any written agreement or authorisation from anyone, but could fabricate one given a couple of weeks. The current red Chinese stamp on the certificate is from a Harbin city-level association which authorises English training centres to give certificates to English students. Given that Sunshine is an English training centre, the origin of this stamp doesnt seem too difficult to guess.
The typical training schedule consists of: input sessions from Tuesday to Friday, including 1 hour of Chinese lessons each day, observation and teaching practice during the evenings and at weekends, and an optional workshop each week for assisting with lesson plans.
During the course of the meeting it also became apparent that in fact the sponsored positions for November had not yet become available, because most of the schools werent considering that far in the future. I was told that closer to the time, a sponsored place may become available and I could convert to that option. Also a sponsored position suddenly became available at Sunshine, so I decided to see if they would give a formal offer. A positive reply came back to me that evening, and I arranged to return to their training centre the next day to review the contracts.
Upon reviewing the contracts I became immediately concerned at the 60-day notice period, number of teaching hours per week (22) compared with the very low salary (4000RMB per month=45/RMB per hour!) and that even that amount was difficult to achieve due to the enforced unpaid holidays and the fact that you need to pay all the utility bills yourself. Also having read personal blogs from current/previous employees, they confirmed the effective working hours to be more like 40 per week when considering lesson planning, travel between branches and other duties, with often very awkward hours and only 1 day off per week. Also if you check the recruitment page for Sunshine (on Will-Excels main website and many other ESL job listing pages), youll see a quoted salary of 5500-7000RMB per month with a $1000 end of contract bonus. Even when you take into consideration the training sponsorship (is this even real when Sunshine is your sponsor school?), the package is obviously taking advantage of new teachers.
The TESOL contract was worrying short, especially compared the self-funded version I had previously been sent. Specifically it had absolutely no information about the number of hours or content of the course offered, not even the categories (input session/teaching practice/etc), said nothing about providing accommodation, food and training materials, and shockingly didnt even state that you would be awarded a certificate! Having asked for this to be included, and attempting for a second time to start negotiations regarding salary, they took over a week to reply, finally just stating that they would not negotiate at all, and that the missing information was available in policy documents which were only available after I had agreed and paid my deposit! I really dont understand why they are afraid to include this basic information in the contracts, especially as all this is stated in their marketing material and is included in the self-funded contract. And to my knowledge, policy manuals can be changed at any time without consultation or legal implications, making them worthless contractually speaking.
Even baring all this mind, and against my better judgment, I agreed to proceed on the logic that Im only risking $200 (compared to $1250 for most TESOL courses), provided that I had a copy of these policy manuals in my possession. They then replied saying that theyd decided to give the position to another applicant and wouldnt honour the original offer, and that I would need to proceed using the self-funded option.
This effectively answered my concerns and finally convinced me to avoid the programme altogether and seek other options. Although from previous posters the training itself sounds positive, the lack of any endorsement of the actual certificate/diploma itself from anyone means that, if self-funded, you are effectively paying $1500 for an unvalidatable piece of paper that I could just as easily achieve from a pal back home! If sponsored from a school that offers better written conditions, or is even willing to communicate directly with you, is certainly worth considering as a last resort.
In summary, Im not trying to bad-mouth Will-Excel or Sunshine, as I havent actually attended the course or worked at Sunshine, but simply to share my arduous experience in the attempt to find out more about this programme something which most applicants dont have the chance to do (because theyre not living in China) and hope that this can be of help to future candidates for this programme.
Dan
- 2008-07-27
Im not sure who Troy is as no one named Troy has ever worked with Will-Excel. Out of the over 100 teachers that have worked with us, perhaps he is one of the 4 that were let go for poor performance.
For many people, teaching in China is a 1-year break from their lives back home. Therefore, the vast majority of teachers, who come to China to teach, only stay for a year and then return home. In Will-Excels case, about 25% of teachers renew their contracts when theyve completed their first one. This high rate of renewals speaks to the positive work experience most teachers have.
Teaching evenings and weekends is the most common schedule that teachers have at language schools since students either work or study at their fulltime schools during the daytime, Monday-Friday. For teachers who only want daytime classes, universities and fulltime schools will be their best bet.
Drew
- 2008-07-26
I have been treated very well here. Sure the workload can be heavy at times but this is a job and not a vacation. This is China and even with Canadian ownership and management things will not always run they way we are used to in the west.
If I could sign a multi year contract I would. I will be here for many year. To quote one of the great thinkers of our time, "That's all I have to say about that".
Michael
- 2008-06-01
Hi Drew,
I was wondering how your experience is going with Wil Excel? Are you of the same opinion as in this thread? anything you can tell me would be great. Thanks!
Mitsy
- 2008-05-10
Troy -
Please do elaborate. I was looking at their program online. Did you go to Harbin with them? What happened?
Thanks,
Mitsy
(Anonymous)
- 2008-04-15
Dan Symes is a pirate. He received a considerable federal grant (in excess of $250,000) to make a business of exploiting people in China. He doesn't pay his employees very well. The hours they work aren't concurrent, unless they're one of his second or third right-hand men. You can expect to work mornings and nights, and he'll probably put a class on your schedule somewhere in between just to make sure you can't do anything on your own time. You will have one day off a week. You can use this time to plan out your classes. You will likely teach 8 to 10 different groups/grades, and so you will need to prepare 8 to 10 lessons per week.
He is a parasite. He receives money for each foreigner/sucker that he manages to reel in, and he doesn't care about treating you well, because if you quit, it just means he can hire new people and gain the aforementioned bonus that comes along with his doing so.
If you're desperate for a job, it's an easy job to get. If you take the time and do the research though, you'll find a job with better pay, better hours, and a lot less bullshit.
Drew seemed like a nice enough guy. I'm not really sure why he put himself in with this lot of scoundrels.
The more you know.
Troy
- 2007-05-12
Hi Drew:
My wife and I are thinking for comming next year (08). Need the time to get things wraped up and ready to go.
I've been looking at this school and Harbin.
I'd love to talk with you on both counts if you wouldn't mind?
Please feel free to email me so we can talk.
Thanks for your time.
Drew
- 2007-03-23
I work for them in Harbin right now. I am actually very happy. The foreign staff are treated very well by the management and the Chinese staff. China was a very scary country to come to and I was relieved to meet the people I would be working for.
Hello,
Curious if anyone out there has had any dealings with Will-Excel Global, especially in Harbin. I appreciate your time and thoughts.
Thank you all.