Turino
- 2009-03-28
As I'm not American,I hadn't heard of two-year associate degrees until now.
Where I come from,degree means a university degree,which can be got after three or four years of university study,the three year one termed an 'ordinary' degree,while the four-year one is usually called an 'honours' degree.
Of course,you Americans say you "graduate" from high school,but in the UK,we humbly call ourselves secondary school leavers after leaving secondary schools for good to continue our education at university.
Your definition of a qualified EFL teacher in China makes interesting reading.And your criteria for hiring such teachers is interesting too.It's a good thing for many FT's here that the vast majority of Chinese employers do not apply your stringent selection procedures,else they'd be out of work.
As for your suggestion that FT's who don't have a passion for teaching here should pack their bags and go back home to do community work there,I think that it will fall upon deaf ears.Maybe some FT's will be angry with said suggestion.Remember the old adage,those who can teach,don't,while those who can't,do.And another one,work to live,or live to work.But your philosophy won't be applied here,where education is run as a business - it's as simple as that,like it or not.
*Well, Turino, I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that you believe anyone can be an English teacher in China. Actually, I agree with that. Anyone can be a teacher in China. Should they be? That's the real question.
Well,fellow FT,I don't know about 'anyone'.I'd prefer to say many people can be teachers in China,but a significant proportion are ineffective teachers,that not always being their fault.
doesitmatter
- 2009-03-27
To answer your last question first, well, I'm a little surprised that you haven't heard of two year degrees. In America, we call it an Associate Degree (AA), and it's offered by community colleges or vocational colleges for a variety of fields and disciplines. For example, many hospital employees, or those in the medical profession have AA degrees. Perhaps you'd call it a diploma rather than a degree, but that's just mincing words. The person I mentioned in a previous post to which you are referring has an IT degree from a college in England, which, as I understand, can actually be earned in as little as a year. Anyway, I'm sure England and America aren't the only countries that offer such a degree.
As to my definition of a qualified teacher in China, I would think it self explanatory. Nevertheless, if you really want specifics:
Experience and/or training in Education or ESL/EFL.
Demonstrated or demonstrable skills. (Obviously not taken into consideration very often in China.)
The ability to string together more than a few sentences in speaking or writing without stumbling. (You know as well as I that it's quite difficult to find posts in these forums that demonstrate such an ability.)
Beyond that, my own personal criteria are a little more stringent. If you couldn't submit a CV without glaring errors, I wouldn't hire you. If you couldn't demonstrate that you're a student of the language yourself, I wouldn't hire you. If you don't know the difference between ESL and EFL, I wouldn't hire you. If you only wanted a job so that you could have a visa that keeps you in China and have no actual interest in teaching, I wouldn't hire you. If you couldn't pass a simple grammar test, I wouldn't hire you. If you couldn't get a job teaching ESL in your own country, I definitely wouldn't hire you to teach EFL in this country.
It's also my opinion that the majority of college students in China would be better served by well qualified Chinese teachers of English. Don't think for a moment that this idea isn't gaining momentum. Sure, a white face carries a lot of weight. It sells the program. That's disgusting, and believe me, as more and more FTs create problems in China and as more and more students complain about inappropriate behavior from said FTs, change will be demanded.* Yes, yes, I can already hear the cries of indignation out there amid the accusations of myself and others being self aggrandizing, but I really don't care. I'm too old to give a damn, and believe it or not it's the students I care about, not the growing swells of UNQUALIFIED FTs. Yeah, boohoo, cry me a river if you can't get a job at home. Why should Chinese students spend the hard earned pay of their parents on less than quality education just so every unemployed bozo from abroad can make a living. Stay home. Plant a garden. Get off your ass and ride a bike. Turn off your electricity once in a while. Help your own country. Get involved in something that allows you to use the skills you do have and forget about stepping into a classroom just because you're a white faced clown who doesn't know the difference between a coma and a comma. Why be a rat that leaves a sinking ship? Get involved with community activism. Wouldn't making a difference at home make a lot more sense than not making a difference abroad?
*Here's a quote from a paper recently written by a Chinese college student with whom I am acquainted.
"My comments: this teacher taught me for a whole year. He talks in a serious way but acts in a totally opposite way. He often showed us girls' pictures in class and said "these are all my Chinese girlfriends" and so on. I can't see any serious motivation from him, not at all. This case should have been resolved at the level of recruitment. We don't need to hire troublemakers."
Well, Turino, I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that you believe anyone can be an English teacher in China. Actually, I agree with that. Anyone can be a teacher in China. Should they be? That's the real question.
Turino
- 2009-03-26
"Actually, 4000 kwai is peanuts and most qualified teachers in China would consider such an offer as bordering on insult."
Not for 14 classes of 45 minutes a week in a backwater.By the way,I'd be interested to know your definition of a qualified teacher in China. Pray tell!
"I know a few teachers that only have two year degrees who are making more than 4000 working part time."
Where on this earth can you get a degree in just two years?
NPN Gains
- 2009-03-23
"Basing any argument on sweeping generalities is fruitless. Wouldn't it be more useful to say that some Directors of Studies are doing less work than teachers? And, by the way, how many Directors have you encountered in China? Enough to make a determination as to their usefulness or whether or not by not being "at the blackboard" they are doing less work than teachers?"
Useful or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned - I'd NEVER work for a Chinese employer who'd appointed a foreign DOS.Teaching in China can even bring out the worst in ordinary unpromoted FT's,I've seen it happen.
And a former colleague of mine told me about a Canadian DOS in Shanxi,a loser who got drunk with his unexpected and undeserved elevated status,so treating his fellow foreigners there like dirt.A story like that is enough to make me shy away from Chinese employers with that kind of employment structure.
"Moreover, you've got to admit that working 18 - 20 hours a week for a salary you can live comfortably on is pretty much a cake walk. So far, after nearly six years in China, I've yet to hear an FT complain of being overworked. Lots of other complaints, yes. But being overworked, no."
Yes,I agree with you on that.That's the main reason I'm here - underworked and overpaid.Long may it continue!
Jerome
- 2009-03-23
Basing any argument on sweeping generalities is fruitless. Wouldn't it be more useful to say that some Directors of Studies are doing less work than teachers? And, by the way, how many Directors have you encountered in China? Enough to make a determination as to their usefulness or whether or not by not being "at the blackboard" they are doing less work than teachers?
Moreover, you've got to admit that working 18 - 20 hours a week for a salary you can live comfortably on is pretty much a cake walk. So far, after nearly six years in China, I've yet to hear an FT complain of being overworked. Lots of other complaints, yes. But being overworked, no.
NPN Gains
- 2009-03-23
"I have known a few teachers who were making 20,000 in Shanghai, but of course they were doing more than teaching. That is, one was a DOS and the other combined being a director with being an instructor and adviser."
I'd say if they're not at the blackboard teaching, they're doing less, not more than ordinary teachers. But you may say that's only my opinion, and of course I'll say yours is only yours too!
Jerome
- 2009-03-23
Actually, Sherlock, the answer to all of your questions is no. I have known a few teachers who were making 20,000 in Shanghai, but of course they were doing more than teaching. That is, one was a DOS and the other combined being a director with being an instructor and adviser.
Jerome
- 2009-03-23
Sorry, NPN, that would be yes to the question regarding net income and no to the others. Truth be known, there was very little work involved. In fact, some teachers at other colleges on that campus, when referencing that job, would often say, "Yeah, it's a tough job, but somebody has to not do it." Moreover, I quit the job after six months because I like to stay busy. It was then that I started working at the middle school I mentioned in a previous post.
Nevertheless, your sarcasm is duly noted.
Turino
- 2009-03-22
I guess it's a typo.Try 6000 instead of 16000.Maybe you're not interested in that job anymore!
NPN Gains
- 2009-03-22
You state that as an FT in China, presumably one teaching English for multiple employers day by day, tut tut by the way, you have made 16,000 RMB per month.
Presumably net income rather than gross? That was within the past couple of years in Shanghai, wasn't it? Am I right or am I right? Bet you were workin, workin, ..... till the cows came home, weren't you?
Jerome
- 2009-03-22
Never allow anyone to rain on your parade and thus cast a pall of gloom and defeat on the entire day. Remember that no talent, no self-denial, no brains, no character, are required to set up in the fault-finding business. Nothing external can have any power over you unless you permit it. Your time is too precious to be sacrificed in wasted days combating the menial forces of hate, jealously, and envy. Guard your fragile life carefully. Only God can shape a flower, but any foolish child can pull it to pieces.
Oq Mandino
John latimer
- 2009-03-20
You state that you have made 16,000RMB per month, I would like to know what you were teaching and in what city?
Roy
- 2009-03-20
Employment should be of the cooperation between employer and employee. Salary size must be mutual acceptable or feasible , as we know, living cost varies from palce to place in China.That is why 4000RMB/month may be more than enough for your good life in some rural areas of China ,while 7000RMB/month makes you a poor boy in Shanghai.No body should unconditionally say 15000RMB/month is too high and 4000RMB/month is too low. When you are negotiating a contract, " insult" should be the final word appears in your mind, even the salary quotation is far from your expectation. Otherwise, you screw up yourself.
Jerome
- 2009-03-20
Beggars in Beijing make more than 2,000 a month. I've been in China a long time. I've worked in six different provinces. I've worked for as much as 16,000 and for as little as 6,000. Moreover, as you can imagine, I know many Chinese people. All of them make well over 2,000 a month and would be shocked to to find that a foreigner was making so little. In fact, on one hand they'd probably feel sorry for you and would definitely tell you that you've been cheated, and, on the other hand, they would find it quite difficult to respect you.
Some foreigners in China who have failed to negotiate a proper salary will happily tell you 2 - 4,000 kwai is plenty. Misery loves company.
Finally, if you are so easily manipulated as to accept such a low wage, your employers will continue to manipulate you in other ways. For example, they'll probably stick you in a very low end apartment, have you doing English Corners for no pay, withhold pay for whatever reason they can think of, cheat you on your flight pay and the list goes on.
Of course, having no degree makes things a little more difficult for you. Actually, though, it is not legal for a public university to hire you anyway. There are loopholes to the law, and some Public Security Bureaus can be, shall we say "convinced" to provide you with a work visa, but generally the rules are tightening these days.
My advice is to finish your degree and then get a TESOL certificate. At that point, you can negotiate from a position of confidence with the added realization that anything less than 6,000 is not only peanuts but also insulting.
Turino
- 2009-03-19
Maybe HooT would be happy enough to lead a simple life in China,but still a better one in terms of buying power of his salary than many millions of Chinese have!
doesitmatter
- 2009-03-19
Actually, 4000 kwai is peanuts and most qualified teachers in China would consider such an offer as bordering on insult. I know a few teachers that only have two year degrees who are making more than 4000 working part time. So, don't get hooked. Negotiate, and do so from a position of confidence in your own abilities. Silverboy has apparently been misinformed and is passing on that misinformation you. I've taught in Nanning for example and know for sure that no one there would even consider working for such a low wage, no matter what their degree situation is. Take your time and recognize while surfing the net for a good job that you are needed; that is, they need you, you don't need them.
I understand that you don't yet have your degree and that, therefore, your options are somewhat limited. Nevertheless, 4000 is peanuts and so is 4,500 - don't sell yourself short - know what you can bring to the table and communicate that clearly to any potential employer. Don't even talk about a job for less than 6,000 plus all the benefits. Don't accept an offer for flight pay being paid at the end of the contract. Insist that it be paid in monthly installments. Flight pay from here to North America should be no less than 1,200 a month.
Good luck.
Turino
- 2009-03-18
Not a problem,even in Beijing or Shanghai.You'd have no financial worries on as little as 2000 a month so long as your regular diet doesn't consist of a high percentage of meat dishes or Western food bought from fast food chain restaurants.
Hey all,
just need a straight answer,
If you get a PUBLIC school job in china, AND they say no office hours etc etc and they say its 18-20 hours a week, am i right in assuming that i only need to work that 20 hours
because a private school wants 40 hours out of me
Now the problem is im still doing my BA degree externally, so i need all the time i can get to get my degree done, ie. i dont want to be working 40 hours and not getting the time i can get to do my BA.
but the only school i can find that will hire me as a teacher with no degree yet in the public sector is about 4000rmb a month. i dont spend at all really, so u think this will be 'sufficient' to live on? considering im not going to be totally wasted every night?
THanks all
[Edited by Administrator (admin) Sat, 14 May 2011, 03:04 AM]